By: Dave Fischer
Nico’s Note: Awhile ago, the author commented about the Men’s Rights movement on one of my pieces, and I wasn’t that familiar with it. I was barely aware that was even a thing. Thus, I did what I always do in these situations: I asked him to write about it, because I wanted to learn more. I wanted to know why he subscribed to this controversial movement and what it meant to him. This is his response.
Last summer, I began to wonder what it was that modern society defined as a man. Beyond my gender, I wondered what historically made famous men who and what they are. Their morals and their systems of judgment about the world around them including how they thought and wrote. Those who sought to bring great social and moral change in our society as well as those who were willing to fight and die to preserve it. I combined this with a heavy dose of studying feminist theory/gender studies and sociology classes, so I could better understand what exactly it is that society expects of men. I came to a few conclusions.
Before I delve into those I’m going to make a few very quick points. I am a strong supporter of LGBT rights. I am a feminist, an egalitarian and libertarian. My views are my own, and each member of the MRM has their own views too. Please do not equate me with extremists on either side of the isle of gender studies.
Now, where was I. Ah, yes.
Why am I a Men’s Rights Activist?
When I was born, part of my body was cut off without consideration for how I might feel about it as an adult. My body was mutilated — and because of this I suffer from anxiety and depression. While Female Genital Mutilation was banned immediately after it was being discussed in the western world, Male Genital Mutilation is protected and even encouraged. With scientific evidence backing both sides, the American Pediatrics Association has declared that “Circumcision” is not medically advised. None of the proposed fixes that circumcision provides cannot be solved with good hygiene, condom use and the HPV vaccine. Yet every day I have people tell me: “Well it still works, why are you complaining?”
Men are not allowed to complain.
When someone asks me how I am doing, I always say “I can’t complain.” Not because everything is okay, but because due to gender roles, I really can’t talk about what is on my mind.
Men are not allowed to feel any emotions, unless they’re in Hollywood romantic comedies. Gender roles hurt EVERYONE, men included. However, only half the equation is really looked at seriously, where women’s social oppression is studied, the expectations and suffering of men are ignored. While they may not be on par with each other, they both merit action and attention. It is a continuation of this problem when MRAs point out to feminists that they suffer from the same problems, and they’re attacked with remarks like “What about teh menz.” Because even some feminists don’t believe men can suffer from gender roles or Kyriarchy/Patriarchy, that when men or women abuse other men, that these men aren’t “oppressed.” Even the fact that the men discussing these issues online are doing so because to do so in reality would make them appear weak, or worse sexist.
I have been assaulted by multiple women in my life.
I have had exes talking about how they could hurt me while holding a knife in their hands, I’ve been beaten up and upon. I’ve been bruised and insulted. I took all of these things in stride because I thought, “As a man, I should be able to put up with this.” That a woman beating on me was “okay” because I was “tough” and she was “weak.”
It took some friends telling me how much they despised the way she treated me, both verbally and physically that I finally realized I was being abused. What’s worse is that this goes on in households across the country for the same reasons. On top of all of that, there are laws that are actively discriminatory against men in domestic violence cases, when statistically they are equally victims.
However, laws like VAWA seek to only protect women with gender specific legislation. We also have primary aggressor laws where men who report domestic violence being committed against them will be arrested. “These policies state that in certain situations police are not allowed to make their own judgements about who is the offender in a domestic violence situation. Instead they have to arrest the person who is larger, is at greater ‘risk,’ or ‘power dynamics’ of a couple.”
I have been sexually assaulted by an ex.
Pushing a woman off of you, telling her you do not want to have sex with them is difficult enough. Then being shamed, having your sexuality questioned, or being asked “What’s wrong with you.” (A question that assumes a man who doesn’t want sex with any woman has a major problem.). To top it all off, I could not turn to others about it as nobody would have taken my complaint seriously. The people I complained to about it directly afterwards told me to brush it off, “It’s not a big deal.” If the genders were reversed, they would be chasing the man down for attempted rape.
There are other major issues the MRM is concerned with. Men are a majority of Suicides, they make up the highest number of on the job deaths (not including the military.) Men are also affected by strict gender roles, and a man who loves being around children is considered weird to the point they aren’t allowed to sit next to children alone on airplanes. An elderly man was kicked out of a Barnes and Noble while shopping for a book for his granddaughter in the kids section. Women commit crimes against men and get negligible punishments, from teachers raping young men in schools and getting a few months probation. To women murdering their husbands while they sleep and claiming “self defense.” Violence against men is glorified and laughed at. Watch this disturbing clip where they laugh about cutting a man’s penis off, and putting it in the garbage disposal. Even when confronted about this Sharon Osborne jokes about it.
Men are told we “have it all” while many are working extra hours away from the families they love to keep food on the table. (At the same time, the wife might be taking extra time at home for the kids and hurting her career, so no one has it all in this equation.) While it’s a sample size of one, this weekend around my parents pool I watched a father explain he had to go back to work to fix a problem, while his children cried for him to stay. It clearly wasn’t the first time this had happened and would likely not be the last.
Lastly, education I won’t write a terribly large amount about. Boys are falling behind drastically in schools, they lack male role models in the classroom as men don’t feel welcome in younger grades as teachers (around kids.) In high school, girls outperform boys in every category except high level math — and even then there are more girls outscoring boys throughout. In college, there are now 60 girls to 40 boys enrolled, and more of those girls will graduate. At all levels of college more women get degrees, but we don’t cry out for the boys losing out on opportunity or even motivation.
So, why am I a MRA? Because everyone suffers in our society, men included, and nobody wants to talk about it. I want EVERYONE to have equal rights, and I want men to be protected just like women. I want a society that doesn’t just say “girl power” but “boy power,” too. I want a society where when I raise a son he can feel free to play with what toys he wants, study whatever he wants and say how he feels. Where he won’t be threatened with bodily harm at birth and where he won’t be told to “suck it up.” Or “deal with it yourself” when he is bullied. I want all of these things for my daughter too, but we’ve already got people crusading for that. It’s time that we focus on helping men, too.
I agree, I would not trade to be a man in a million years
I am raising a boy though and he is in touch with his Feminine side. I did feel bad discouraging him from picking a hello kitty lunch box to start school with, but some things just won’t go down well. While there are gender roles the men in my life are very much free to express emotions and talk about feelings no macho men here.
It’s always good to hear about someone applying gender studies when raising boys. So many young boys need a pat on the back and to be told it’s okay to like whatever they like. Being taught to express that at a young age is going to do wonders for him when hes older.
> I did feel bad discouraging him from picking a hello kitty lunch box to start school with
I hope you feel bad.Your child will remember that you think femininity is shameful and bad. They’ll remember this for years and years, and everytime they’re interested in anything feminine, they’ll remember their mother filling them with shame, misogyny, and self loathing, and they’ll get defensive, jealous, and angry. They might even take out their anger on a feminine boy whose parents DIDN’T try to manipulate and change him.
Trust me, you didnt’ distract him. You didn’t convince him that the other lunch box was better. You didn’t change his mind. He noticed, and learned, that his own mother finds femininity shameful, and now he’s actively working to hide any trace of femininity, for fear of his mother will hate him.
But hey, we wouldn’t want OTHER parents little boys to be confused by a feminine lunch box, god forbid.
He was bullied in the first term of school. I don’t think a hello kitty lunch box would have helped his cause. Don’t forget to apply the theory to the real world in which we live, a 4 year old trying to hold his own in a class of 40 kids, I agreed with him it was pretty but pointed out the boys would tease him, which they would have. Would you stick a kick me sign to your child’s back? Not I.
Wow, you are intensely negative.
A singular event in his like is not going to make him hate women (there you go abusing the word misogyny.) It’s not going to make him feel shame and self loathing over a SINGLE event.
Your comment is hateful toward someone who is clearly doing a dedicated job of raising her child, trying to help him fit in while not exactly conforming to gender roles. You’re advocating a totalitarian anti-gender attitude that would nullify the parents ability to raise their child or protect them from others. She could have just as easily bought a grey-plastic lunch box and ended it there, She did not say she made him pick out a G.I. Joe lunch box and made him salute afterwards for reinforcement.
The fact you assign so much extreme value to femininity over masculinity is telling of your attitude toward men in general. I’d appreciate it if you took your hateful rhetoric elsewhere so that some people can have a civil discussion. As I am not a moderator I can only politely ask.
Wow, you are completely out of touch with reality. Would you want your child (if you even have one) beaten up over a lunch box? Ten years later, a child would not remember her mother suggesting a different lunch box. They would, however, remember being mercilessly tormented. Before you post again, please consider what happens in real life. Thank you.
I’m surprised you didn’t address the heaps of misogyny being expressed by others in your movement…I know your point was to show why you personally are an MRA and I’m not conflating you with those people, but I would like to hear your take on whether or not you think some of their “activism” is problematic.
Some feminists have been spewing mind-blowing hatred against men and non-Feminist women for decades now. How would you like it if a man ignored an entire article you wrote about women’s rights, and demanded you be answerable for every single bigoted feminist in the world?
Miriam, there will be another article (I hope) coming soon, that issue is on the tablet.
My personal take on the “Misogyny” in the movement is two things.
Yes there is an element of misogyny in some members of the movement, including a few leaders. Leaders as a whole tend to be more radical/visionary than those who correspond to their beliefs. However, there is also a great deal of men who have found the MRM only after being severely abused or mistreated in their lives by women. They find the MRM only to see that some members blame Feminism for many problems they have experienced. But there is an important distinction to make here, they blame Feminism, not women. They see evidence of feminist groups that push for the advocacy of women on issues they’re personally suffering from, and they see that these groups care nothing for them. So they become angry and dejected.
I put the word “Misogyny” in quotes, because I personally feel that word is over-used and stretched to define itself to cover anything that is unflattering or disagrees with a woman. It’s definition is that of “acting with hatred toward women.” when more often it’s used to describe simply being rude. Like I said, it’s definitely out there in the movement, but it’s not the majority, A great example of how rejected misogyny is by the majority of the MRM, would be that real Misogynist sites like “Manhood101″ get downvoted into oblivion on Reddit.
So yes, it IS there. How do we fix it? It’s mostly going to take time, cool heads and education of the movement. As the movement grows more moderates will join to push those who are extreme out.
The other part of why you see that kind of attitude is…
The most common type of thread posted on Men’s Rights where people express their personal beliefs, is one where they talk about how their wife has taken their kids, and refused them access and the government won’t help them. Where they might be homeless or even running from an abusive partner they will be turned away from “Women’s shelters.” Or denied certain benefits from government programs.
Is their activism problematic?
Not at all, the goals of MRAs are usually extremely egalitarian. Father’s Right’s groups don’t want to take kids away from Mom, they just want equal time. MGM “In-activists” oppose FGM just as much as MGM.
False Rape advocates… Rape is a VERY sensitive issue. I’ll admit they’re a little more extreme. However, they bring up valid points about our legal system and can back them up with evidence. (want to get outraged? google Brian Banks)
In general, I think the best thing that is coming out of it is a challenge to modern feminism at points where it has become disingenuous and where it has veered away from equality for supremacy. At all points the people who challenge feminism have to become more aware of gender roles and gender studies. I think that’s good for everyone.
Nicely done, Miriam. You have quickly demonstrated why men will never be helped by the Feminist movement. Hatred and fear of men is rampant in many Feminist sites, but it is denied – “Those are not REAL Feminists!”. But when men try to empower themselves, women such as yourself are very quick to complain of sexism and misogyny.
Enjoy your bigotry, Miriam.
Ya’ll, can we please be respectful? Miriam was just addressing a part of his article that she felt could have been improved, which was more engaging with the pervasive misogyny of the MRM, something anyone who has ever been on Reddit knows is very much a thing. It doesn’t help to completely bash someone who very respectfully brought up a suggestion for improvement in the piece or from a follow-up piece from Dave. Trolling her doesn’t help the discussion of MRM or start a dialogue on men’s rights; it will just ensure that women are increasingly marginalized from the message of the movement. Which then looks like more misogyny.
someone is not a troll just because they disagree with you or are more accusatory in their tone. and for the love of god stop throwing around the word misogyny.
I’m not surprised he didn’t address misogyny. Basic patriarchy theory: Privilege is invisible, and patriarchy works hard to ensure that privilege remains invisible. To them, there’s literally no patriarchy, and no privilege.
Same reason men didn’t invent feminism on their own. :3
Because this article isn’t about misogyny, it’s about the problems I have faced as a male, and the ways I see to address them.
You’re attacking the article for something not mentioned and failing to address the article itself. In doing so you only enforce the idea that men’s issues are not important, and that feminists don’t care about Men’s issues. Then you wonder aloud why so many MRA’s hate feminists, because you won’t admit they face issues too.
Men did not invent Feminism because they were blinded by privilege, Women are now returning the favor when men are embracing it for themselves.
Actually, modern Feminism was based on Marxist theory so men did invent feminism, sort of.
The women’s suffrage movement, before Marxism, had virtually nothing to do with Feminist theory and in fact would be very much opposed to what the Feminist movement has become.
I hope you;re just using the wrong words, here. Because MRAs are pretty exclusively anti-feminist and blame the problems of men that are caused by patriarchy on women and feminism, and on straw feminism at that: most of the concepts that cause men to be (re-)victimized by other men pretty obviously predate feminism by several centuries, but no matter to them. It’s a pretty unhealthy circle of logical fallacies and rationalizations cloaked in victim-blaming. Most of them remind me of tea partiers who blame job loss on immigrants, but vote in favor of candidates who run corporations and legisilate in favor of outsourcing: subconsciously speaking and due to programming, they’re so afraid of losing the little social standing they have over others, granted by those above them, that they’d rather attack the weaker part of the false binary that is being used against them than go after the problem and its source.
I’d be wary of using the term and applying it to yourself unless it’s what you really mean.
Don’t know if you know of these websites, but: http://manboobz.com/wtf-is-a-mgtow-a-glossary/
http://mensantiviolencecouncil.com/2011/07/03/no-seriously-what-about-teh-menz-awesome-new-blog/
http://www.realadultsex.com/ (Fig Leaf’s Blog)
It never ceases to amaze me that so many Feminists are incapable of any argumentation other than logical fallacies and shaming language.
The majority of MRAs, including prominent bloggers like Paul Elam, John The Other, and Girl Writes What, fully acknowledge that men have suffered through the ages due to decisions largely made by an elite minority of men at the top.
With their “patriarchy theory” Feminism takes a pee-pee on the graves of the hundreds of millions of men throughout history who died in wars and dangerous jobs for the protection of women and children. You all want to pretend that sitting at home with the children was an incredibly worse situation than, say, getting your guts ripped out by a bayonet and dying a horrifying death on some battlefield somewhere.
We can agree that women had to put up with a ton of crap in past societies, and still do have to put up with some crap to this day. But Feminism has spent forty years of making things worse for men and non-Feminist women while laughably claiming to stand for equality.
In the present society, feminism attacks ALL men as “the privileged patriarchy” while actively working for Female Supremacy rather than equality. Feminism deliberately obfuscates, ignores, and laughs off heaps of statistical evidence that men are doing much worse than women in society in many ways. Feminism also shows a deep-seated level of hatred for women who do not adhere to their narrow ideology.
I will NOT let the term “MRA” become some sort of evil boogyman, and neither should you. Men’s Rights are what I advocate for, I will accept nothing different. There are others like me who are quite happy being moderates who support feminism, but are critical of some of its methods.
I am well aware of Manboobz, and I’ve commented before on Feminist and MR boards how I find his methods deplorable. He enjoys cherry picking, quote baiting and false flagging. Maybe you’re familiar with ManhoodAcademy101? The most misogynistic website ever? Downvoted EVERY TIME it’s put on the Mens Rights Reddit. It’s not magic that happens it’s that the majority of people there arn’t women hating feminist blaming cave men. From my comment earlier
” However, there is also a great deal of men who have found the MRM only after being severely abused or mistreated in their lives by women. They find the MRM only to see that some members blame Feminism for many problems they have experienced. But there is an important distinction to make here, they blame Feminism, not women. They see evidence of feminist groups that push for the advocacy of women on issues they’re personally suffering from, and they see that these groups care nothing for them. So they become angry and dejected.”
Maybe you’re not familiar with the rest of Reddit and groups like “GameofTrolls” a spinoff from Shitredditsays that gladly makes false posts and fake accounts just to imitate MRAs and expand misinformation about the MRM.
Look, I’ve admitted before that there are bad elements to the MRM. It’s what we do about that as individuals that will really affect how those elements affect the rest of the movement. You can continue to slander and attack them and scream about how horrible they are. Or you can engage the rest of the people who subscribe to the idea of a rights movement for men. You can help direct them toward a more positive movement.
Also, as I addressed in a previous comment, certain feminist groups ARE responsible for legislation and social attitudes toward men that are extremely harming. Feminists certainly are not the “Great Evil” that some MRAs make them out to be, but they certainly are not innocent.
Admitting that maybe some feminist policies/groups have taken an anti-male stance would go a LONG way toward getting those specific MRAs to feel less hostile.
What is most disappointing about your comment is that it does not even touch on the article provided, meaning either you found it lacking any value worth discussing or commenting on or you did not read it. Either way, it’s insulting.
I have been discussing these issues for over a decade now. Feminists are almost never willing to respond to reasoned arguments with reason. All they have are histrionics, logical fallacies, strawmen, and outright lies.
I, too, disagree mightily with the bigoted attitudes of some MRAs. And I have called them out for it, repeatedly. On the other hand, the vast majority of Feminists will bend over backwards to rationalize and excuse the most hateful and supremacist Feminists.
A lot of interesting thoughts for me to dwell on here, Dave. Although having rarely been outright on a public forum about it, i definitely consider myself a Men’s rights activist (I’m always hesitant to say that my gender studies research is based in men) as well as a feminist, anti-racist, and LGBTQ activist. I thought you made some good points and got me thinking about the necessity of men’s rights activists who are working from an anti-patriarchal framework. Looking forward to follow up pieces and the conversation that comes from those.
I’d be interested in talking about men’s rights activism too. Feel free to e-mail me at kaitlind.weiss@gmail.com.
Thanks for this piece!
Glad to hear it! I’ll email you some time and we can touch base!
My personal opinion is that at one point most feminists strived for what was important. Equality. As a woman I am glad females have come so far and am very proud to be a woman. I am however, ashamed at what some, not all, feminists have become. Men and Women should be equal. In the past fighting for equality was the main issue, now it seems like it’s a constant hatred towards men. Maybe not in a all out man bashing war but I see it in things like domestic abuse, custody issues, and even the little things like questioning a mans thoughts and telling him not to complain about anything.
I have heard so many horrible stories about women being abused both physically and mentally. When this happened a woman is encouraged to speak out, to leave, to seek help even thearpy is if needed. I think that men, even if they are physically stronger than a woman shoud have this encouragement too, should abuse happen to him. In todays society, it is unfortunate that many men would keep things bottled up or let the abuse go on in fear of seeking help because of the kind of weight society puts on a mans shoulders. “Be a man, suck it up” Isn’t uncommon to hear when this kind of issue with men is brought up.
Another thing that really bothers me is that women in most states are deemed as “whats in the childs best intrest” when the custody for a child is decided. In society women are seen as the nuturers while the father is the one uncapable of raising a child alone. Sadly, there are so many cases when its the other way around. I feel for single mothers that have have to do it alone when a man is irreasponsible, but if you do some research you can find that so many man have the same issues. There are men that give up their life for their children while the mother is on drugs, has severe mental issues, or a record but yet the father cannot obtain custody simply because it is still thought that no matter how bad a mother is, she is still a mother. And if a mother has that many instablilities yet the courts see that the child is better off with her instead of a perfectly normal loving father, then to me thats just messed up. In the courts it should be in the childs best intrests no matter the sex of the parent. I feel in this area men often struggle not even getting a chance. The decision is sometimes made before they even enter the court room because of socities views.
Men and Women just need to be equal, and yes I get that it’s easier said than done. I am a woman and I want equal rights, all women do. But we SHOULD NOT HAVE TO BRING A MAN DOWN TO GET THESE RIGHTS. Men have feelings too. A man that abuses a woman in my eyes is a peice of garbage, but guess what? A woman who abuses a man just because society thinks its ok is a peice of garbage too. Lets try to be equal here and I know its sounds childish but lets just treat people the way you want to be treated regardless of what sex you are.
Maybe both sexes need to start fighing together against ALL abusers, ALL rapists no matter if they are a man or a woman. And fight for childrens rights to have a good future with whichever parent that may be. Lets try to encourage all victims of injustice no matter man or woman to fight for their rights as a human being.
The reason why some (not all) Feminists actively work to screw over men is because they are not supporters of equality, they are working for supremacy. The “reasonable” mainstream Feminists who fail to acknowledge this are (knowingly or not) enabling a supremacist ideology.
There is a big difference between “being treated badly by women” and “being oppressed” I wish MRM supporters could understand that but they don’t seem to see that it’s a hatred of femininity that limits expression for men.
Oh well.
I guess I am disappointed that IOW published this because it seems like I could go to any of the darker sides of the internet if I wanted to see people claiming men are oppressed.
Sorry, I cannot for the life of me figure out how to just post a comment without replying, that was not intended to be tagged on to another comment.
Snaps and claps Marissa! I am with you completely, there is a huge difference between mistreatment and having a system work against you, and the hardening against feminism often thrown about, that cuts away at men’s femininity, only hurts us more.
I do appreciate this article being up though. I am a male feminist and have only caught glimpses of the MRM. From what I have seen I have not really enjoyed. This writer though seems to have a decent mind about him, can express himself, and carries more nuance that some of the other writers I have read. I agree with him on some points (circumcision and advocating for raped men), but I am unsure if I agree with the entity of the Men’s Rights Movement. I am just glad to see a level tone and someone who doesn’t seem to hate Feminism in the movement.
Also I want to say, that I am a survivor of sexual violence, and a man. Who helped me when I felt ashamed that my then boyfriend raped me, who supported me and gave me space to breath then in my own time parse out what happened and how to recover, who helped me understand I never deserved something like that? Feminists. So every person who has commented here about how Feminists don’t support men, Feminists hurt men, Feminists want supremacy not equality, you’re wrong. Very wrong.
Marissa and Peter,
Feminism as a whole has been good for society. I actually specifically pointed out parts where it has damaged men however such as women’s groups pushing for legislation that is specifically discriminatory against men.
Marissa, IOW asked me to write this article because Nico was curious how someone he knew from growing up would get involved with the MRM.
As for oppression, one controversial view that I hold looks something like this. History is viewed through a “Male” perspective. Feminists argue this and point out how women’s accomplishments and suffering is ignored throughout history and they are accurate in that statement.
However, what is also ignored in history is how men in power treated other men. Where men have held incredibly dangerous jobs (mining, even more specifically coal mining) forced military service. Things of those nature. They were required by society to take these jobs to support women and society (including men of better standing.) They had little to no access to education or ways to improve their standing, and it was systemic in nature. (Think Appalachia)
Would this not be an oppressed class of people? Are men who are held to similar standards not oppressed?
Privilege aside, everyone is oppressed by the Patriarchy/Kytriarchy in one way or another. Comparing mens to womens is apples to oranges and ends up devolving into what I call “The Oppression Olympics” where nobody wins because everyone is too busy fighting each other instead of fighting oppression.
If male oppression is real regardless of severity, and feminists (who hold systemic power in academic gender studies and discussion) outright ignore it, or refuse to address it is that not oppression? Wouldn’t acknowledging that oppression, and welcoming them into the fold help them address the ways that they as men might contributed to the oppression in society?
MRAs don’t deny that women have it bad, they just want to make the case that they’re suffering too.
Men also make up the majority of homeless people, and the majority of people living in poverty.
Great article Dave.
Members of the MRM like myself are working to see a day when the entire breadth of male sexuality is respected and support gay marriage because no one should be able to tell a man who he can love or who he can marry. Some MRAs are openly gay and progressive and some are not, but we all want to help build a better world for men and boys.